Am I allowed to upload Visual Enhancement mods?

Jizargo · 06/13/17, 11:59 AM

People are asking me if my ESO Graphics Extender can be on Minion, I know ZAM doesn't approve of certain kinds of files, or accessing their database with an API. So I'm unsure if it'll be alright for me to upload the files here.

It contains Reshade, Hook64, and forces depth buffer access. If It's alright to upload please let me know.

***Dolby*** · 06/13/17, 12:11 PM

ZAM? We are not part of ZAM.

Minion only knows how to manage files inside the AddOn folder. If your ESO Graphics Extender goes inside the AddOn folder and has a proper addon Manifest file it should work. Minion does not know what to do with exe's or things that are done outside the AddOn folder and would require a ton of work to support something that does.

If its an exe/client wrapper and does not violate the Zenimax & Bethesda TOS/EULA we can probably host it in the utilities category however again Minion won't list it because it won't know what to do with it. Minion's current world is the AddOns folder.

Jizargo · 06/13/17, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Dolby

ZAM? We are not part of ZAM.

Minion only knows how to manage files inside the AddOn folder. If your ESO Graphics Extender goes inside the AddOn folder and has a proper addon Manifest file it should work. Minion does not know what to do with exe's or things that are done outside the AddOn folder and would require a ton of work to support something that does.

If its an exe/client wrapper and does not violate the Zenimax & Bethesda TOS/EULA we can probably host it in the utilities category however again Minion won't list it because it won't know what to do with it. Minion's current world is the AddOns folder.

Okay so I'll just have to unpack the files into the correct folder, but can Minion automatically update tools/utilities?

The issue people have is they have to manually update. I can fix that with a quick program in VS but minion was requested, guess I forgot how all this works.

Letho · 06/16/17, 02:34 AM

Originally Posted by Dolby

(...)

If its an exe/client wrapper and does not violate the Zenimax & Bethesda TOS/EULA we can probably host it in the utilities category however again Minion won't list it because it won't know what to do with it. Minion's current world is the AddOns folder.

As far as I know it ZOS has never replied to questions wether this program was allowed or not. As an online gaming account is sth. that has lots of time invested in it I'd rather refrain from posting it here, as layer 8 errors leading to account loss will be very painful for those who are affected and in ultimo damage this site's reputation: What I am trying to say is that downloadable addons should be safe to use when being posted here, I personally trust the site to look after that. Just my 2 cents

Jizargo · 06/17/17, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Letho

As far as I know it ZOS has never replied to questions wether this program was allowed or not. As an online gaming account is sth. that has lots of time invested in it I'd rather refrain from posting it here, as layer 8 errors leading to account loss will be very painful for those who are affected and in ultimo damage this site's reputation: What I am trying to say is that downloadable addons should be safe to use when being posted here, I personally trust the site to look after that. Just my 2 cents

It's safe, the draw distance no longer increases the distance at which other players or enemies are rendered. They removed this so enemies can only been seen at a certain distance despite how far you make your draw distance. The downside to this is in Cyrodill since you can see so far off in the distance, it will look like players are magically appearing. This is because the game has a maximum limit of how far off enemies can be rendered. They specifically did this to avoid the issue of Hook64 being used as an exploiting tool.They also unbanned players who were banned for unintentionally exploiting draw distance to see Zergs across the map. This all happen in 2014, so you can rest assured that it's perfectly safe to use Hook64.

The depth buffer access thing is also not a problem. ZOS is aware, and has taken measures to prevent any possibility of exploiting with it. Hope this information helps.

Also for the record, theres a higher chance of addons having something malicious about them and end up getting you banned. I Remember in the past there was an issue of ZOS banning people who's addons were triggering something that indicated they're cheating.

Letho · 06/18/17, 02:36 AM

Nobody was banned for using Miat's spell alerts and the addon circumvented all stealth mechanics. I don't think you can anticipate ZOS behavior logically, as the owner of the game they have the right to ban/unban every programm they don't like, be it comprehensible (ToS, EULA, etc.) or not. So while I definetely think they should officially allow ENBs, I would hesitate using one as long as they haven't officially given any persmission to do so.

Don't get me wrong, I love graphical overhauls and I would love seeing it in ESO! So if you could get ZOS to officially permit it's usage or release a table of functions that are allowed or not allowed, it would be much appreciated, so I could use it myself

Jizargo · 06/18/17, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Letho

Nobody was banned for using Miat's spell alerts and the addon circumvented all stealth mechanics. I don't think you can anticipate ZOS behavior logically, as the owner of the game they have the right to ban/unban every programm they don't like, be it comprehensible (ToS, EULA, etc.) or not. So while I definetely think they should officially allow ENBs, I would hesitate using one as long as they haven't officially given any persmission to do so.

Don't get me wrong, I love graphical overhauls and I would love seeing it in ESO! So if you could get ZOS to officially permit it's usage or release a table of functions that are allowed or not allowed, it would be much appreciated, so I could use it myself

I told you how Hook64 was used to exploit the rendering distance of enemies/players. ZOS being people with actual brains decided to make the render distance of players and draw distance seperate so people can increase their draw distance without having an unfair advantage over others.

If you want a statement from ZOS then go ahead and contact them. I feel you're pressuring me to do something and I'm not going to bend over backwards for you. For the past 3 years there hasn't been any new exploits dealing with draw distance or depth buffer access. Considering the nature of this game there is no exploits that could be done. ZOS has already patched the only possible way it could be exploited. They've also allowed people to use Hook64 publicly on their forums, they've never made a specific statement on the matter because if they did say "Hook64 is fine to use" then the developer creates a version that can somehow exploit the game, then they'll have to retract their statements and or unban players intentionally exploiting who can argue ZOS said it's fine.

ArtOfShred · 06/18/17, 01:42 PM

I'm all for it being uploaded to utilities here for easier access to updates. Removing fog alone makes the game look incredibly better.

Even if there was a point at which Zenimax decided to shell out bans for it, I think ultimately those bans would be refuted. But thats we rather unlikely, as you mentioned they have already taken measures to prevent any potential exploitation.

As long as Dolby and Cairenn are on board you have my +1!

iwontsay · 06/18/17, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Jizargo

They've also allowed people to use Hook64 publicly on their forums, (...)

Link or it didn't happen.

Jizargo · 06/19/17, 02:16 AM

Originally Posted by iwontsay

Link or it didn't happen.

Letho · 06/19/17, 03:12 AM

Originally Posted by Jizargo

I told you how Hook64 was used to exploit the rendering distance of enemies/players. ZOS being people with actual brains decided to make the render distance of players and draw distance seperate so people can increase their draw distance without having an unfair advantage over others.

Call me paranoid, but I got educated playing a specific Blizzard game and their policy was clear:
lua addons = safe no matter what they do,
other files, especially executables = ban.
And I know ppl have been banned for using ENB (or was it SweetFX?) for just a graphical overhaul. Of course ZOS is not Blizzard, but as I said: My account has far too much time in it to risk even the slightest thing. I am NOT TALKING ABOUT EXPLOITABILITY, I am talking of developer's potential narrow-mindedness towards that subject, that I have experienced in the past, althought in another game, just a PERSONAL risk-reward calculation.

Originally Posted by Jizargo

If you want a statement from ZOS then go ahead and contact them. I feel you're pressuring me to do something and I'm not going to bend over backwards for you.

I am not trying anything here but stating a PERSONAL! oppinion. Pressuring ppl to do sth. requires power - power that I do not have, as I am just an ordinary author here.

Originally Posted by Jizargo

They've also allowed people to use Hook64 publicly on their forums, they've never made a specific statement on the matter because if they did say "Hook64 is fine to use" then the developer creates a version that can somehow exploit the game, then they'll have to retract their statements and or unban players intentionally exploiting who can argue ZOS said it's fine.

That's a good point, yes.

As stated before, Dolby and Cairenn are the ones to decide on your subject, all other ppl can only offer their oppinions on this subject.

Jizargo · 06/19/17, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Letho

Call me paranoid, but I got educated playing a specific Blizzard game and their policy was clear:
lua addons = safe no matter what they do,
other files, especially executables = ban.
And I know ppl have been banned for using ENB (or was it SweetFX?) for just a graphical overhaul. Of course ZOS is not Blizzard, but as I said: My account has far too much time in it to risk even the slightest thing. I am NOT TALKING ABOUT EXPLOITABILITY, I am talking of developer's potential narrow-mindedness towards that subject, that I have experienced in the past, althought in another game, just a PERSONAL risk-reward calculation.

I am not trying anything here but stating a PERSONAL! oppinion. Pressuring ppl to do sth. requires power - power that I do not have, as I am just an ordinary author here.

That's a good point, yes.

As stated before, Dolby and Cairenn are the ones to decide on your subject, all other ppl can only offer their oppinions on this subject.

I know your pain...

I play a small community based Third/Tactical person shooter. I've been banned about 3 times for "cheating" because the staff doesn't like how I play the game. I refuted everything they banned me for but the basic reason was, "It's unfair to play against me" which was warranted by "He's too good".

So believe me, I understand the excessive force used by game studios. However I can assure you ZOS has taken precautions to prevent exploits and have understandably allowed Reshade/Hook64 without any problems.

After having use reshade and hook64 for over 3 years now, I personally promise it's fine. My guild mates were banned because they used hook64 in cyrodill back during launch before ZOS removed distant char rendering. Back then we knew it was safe to play the PvE zones but PVP you could get banned. The guy who was banned immediately got unbanned, and ZOS used the information we gave them to fix the unintentional exploit, so we can now all use it in PVP no problem.

I too was worried about the nature of these files being hosted on ESOUI, however staff here were much more reasonable than I had anticipated. I'm willing to do anything to prove the files provided are not malicious (I'll even reverse engineer them and figure out whats going on, Reshade is open source and I've tried making my own pull) and the exploits that could of been done (during 2014) has been patched, and confirmed ZOS wont ban people for using these things.

Edit: I have to mention this.... ZOS has the best anti-cheat measures in any MMO I've ever played period. So if this was in anyway an exploit anymore, I garuntee you I and many others would of been getting banned a long time ago, and ZOS would of made a public statement on not using hook64 or reshade.

iwontsay · 06/19/17, 10:05 PM

The main theme of these postings from official side are "If it's using the LUA API, fine, if not, hands off!"

Player and inofficial postings like "I'm using it for months and no one cared a whit about it!" or "They patched the exploit long ago" don't count. Easy as that.

Hook64 may be devised to provide visual enchancements, and the source code (if they review it, though I'm sure they won't spend time doing so), everyone versed in coding could "extend" its purpose for cheating/botting. Making walls semi-transparent or outright removing them would come to my mind.

ZOS can't simply test and review every game modification which goes beyond the limited set of scripting functions they provide. So they issue a blanket ban on everything which modifies or influences the executable on disk or in memory, but only react if they actually notice botting/cheating behavior or it's reported to them.

sirinsidiator · 06/20/17, 03:16 AM

If we go purely by the ToS I'd say it is okay as long as it doesn't allow you to cheat:

ZeniMax does not endorse, sponsor, guaranty or approve any Game Mods, including without limitation Game Mods available for download from a ZeniMax website.

Your experience with any particular Game Mod may vary from other users' experiences.

IF YOU ELECT TO INSTALL, DOWNLOAD OR USE ANY GAME MODS, YOU DO SO AT YOUR OWN RISK.

Originally Posted by Gina Bruno

all ZeniMax games share the same TOS.

source

But I have to say, removing the fog and changing the colors doesn't make it look better. My eyes bleed everytime I see someone post a screenshot like that and say how "good" it looks. But that's probably just my opinion.

iwontsay · 06/20/17, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by sirinsidiator

If we go purely by the ToS I'd say it is okay as long as it doesn't allow you to cheat:

source

But I have to say, removing the fog and changing the colors doesn't make it look better. My eyes bleed everytime I see someone post a screenshot like that and say how "good" it looks. But that's probably just my opinion.

That goes for every sort of game mod. Including those which do limit themselves to the ESO API. If they break, don't go crying to ZOS...

That's still independent from what I summarized in my previous posting. The links in the posting previous to that clearly say that only these addons using the ESO API only are approved, anything else is considered as a violation of the ToS.

And yes, I'll sign that. Ever went outside, up on an elevated spot and looked at faraway places? If you do, you would indeed see a blue haze. (Or brown, but then I'd be worrying about the air quality) In fact, the brain uses this fading to measure distances.

Jizargo · 06/20/17, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by iwontsay

The main theme of these postings from official side are "If it's using the LUA API, fine, if not, hands off!"

Player and inofficial postings like "I'm using it for months and no one cared a whit about it!" or "They patched the exploit long ago" don't count. Easy as that.

Hook64 may be devised to provide visual enchancements, and the source code (if they review it, though I'm sure they won't spend time doing so), everyone versed in coding could "extend" its purpose for cheating/botting. Making walls semi-transparent or outright removing them would come to my mind.

ZOS can't simply test and review every game modification which goes beyond the limited set of scripting functions they provide. So they issue a blanket ban on everything which modifies or influences the executable on disk or in memory, but only react if they actually notice botting/cheating behavior or it's reported to them.

Not possible. Plus it'd be unreasonably hard to program cheats in HLSL.

Like I said before, ZOS has amazing cheat detection and if someone was somehow exploiting they'd be banned almost instantly. If there was anyway people could be exploiting with reshade or hook64 then they would have already cracked down on it. They don't care about visual enhancements as long as they don't impact the base game allowing unfair advantages.

Kyoma · 06/20/17, 12:34 PM

All this talk about graphic enhancements remind me of my friend that has a really ****ty plebtop (that's like a.... devolved laptop) and he can often see through walls in IC sewers simply because they dont render properly.

OSean980 · 06/20/17, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Kyoma

All this talk about graphic enhancements remind me of my friend that has a really ****ty plebtop (that's like a.... devolved laptop) and he can often see through walls in IC sewers simply because they dont render properly.

ZOS did state in 2014 that the game was designed for computers 4 years old. Maybe that meant the game was actually designed for computers 4 years old, favoring them by providing wallhacks.