Sorcerers - let's discuss skills !

[Revehn]

Hey everyone,

I was invited ealy january, and I created 6 sorcerers as of right now.
Some went 6 or 7, two went way higher (max was 16).
I can't tell I checked everything, there was too much to try. However, I can tell you that things pleased me... or didn't.
I'd like to know about your experience with sorcerers, and how that went.

1) Dark Magic - Summoner - Light Armor - Destruction Staff
The pet (morphed to Clannfear) wasn't a big addition. In fact, I felt it was quite useless.
Dark Magic was strong combined with Soul Trap, but it wasn't THAT powerful. It had nice CC, but that was all. Didn't try any spell from Destr Staff.

2) Dark Magic - Summoner - Light Armor - Restoration Staff
Again, the pet wasn't interesting. It survived a bit more with Restoration staff passive, but I wasn't convinced at all. I felt my mana wasn't there when I needed it the most.
Restoration staff was clearly an upgrade from before.

3) Lightning - Dark Magic - Medium Armor - Dual Wield
Way better than expected, with 1/1/1 on char points.
However, I somehow found that 1/1/1 wasn't the smartest choice. I believe it could be very strong, but it needed a very well planned character. Since it was beta, it wasn't, and I feel I made it wrong.
However, clearly better than the two previous ones.

4) Lightning - Dark Magic - Light Armor - Restoration Staff
At some point, I found out that sorcerers needed A LOT of defensive stats.
I morphed (8sec) Lightning Armour, took a lot of Resto Staff skills, and a lot of mana regen.
I did Broken Cells (1rst dungeon in Auridon) at lv12 as a healer.
Best character I made so far !
Blessing of Protection is the best !
It wasn't THAT offensive, but if 3 dremoras can't take you... even by surprise, what could you possibly need more ?
30% offensive, 70% defensive = best combination I found.

5) Lightning - Dark Magic - Heavy Armor - Destruction Staff
FULL OFFENSIVE !
Trash character. Moving on.

6) Lightning - Dark Magic - heavy Armor - Resto Staff
Lack of mana was planned.
And it was painful.
So painful I couldn't keep up with my other char.
Moving on... to next beta.


Soooo. I think Sorcerer is a very strong class, but somehow it lacks of survivability without Resto Staff, and it lacks of mana. I didn't feel of a sorcerer THAT much with 50% mana. It was one, perhaps two spells.
Morphing was interesting every time, except when it was for mana preservation/mana reduction : then it was the best in morph (BIM will be a thing !). I tried morphing for AoE dmg, it was ridiculous. Don't ever do that, except if you could 4 morph like that.
Btw, when I felt like I was "getting enough mana regen", the game told me I had to much, and then gave me diminishing return...

Now I didn't try everything (I left Summoner, but I heard Daedric curse was nice + Winged Summon was interesting), Destro staff had Force Pulse I didn't try, or Wall... But I'd like to know what YOU thought about all this.

Revehn

PS : except for the 1/1/1 char, I went 3/3/1.

[PeterRJG]

I did some experimenting myself and while I'm no theorycrafter, I found a combo of dark/daedric to be very effective, coupled with a destruction staff. Essentially, I snared (if there were multiples) and then used curse, while wailing on them with the staff. The curse kicked in and generally finished off the mob quickly. I rarely needed to use by big dark nuke.

[mageguy]

I've done 3 betas now as a Sorc.
And I've just been slowly perfecting the build I'll take with me to live.
And it's a Daedric/Dark/Storm build.
You'll notice that doesn't leave much room on my bar for any destruction staff abilities.
You're right.
Tho that's what I use.
I go with two summons (clannfear and twilight).
Curse, Shard, and Fury.
And then it's allll about the passive's baby. I load up on the passives: Capacitor, Unholy Knowledge and Rebate, and I keep improving them.
And then the High Elf passives.

Long story short, by level 16 I was honestly forgetting that I had a destruction staff on.
Even with the 20% mana reduction from having two pets out (-10% per pet), I regenned so quickly, and had so much base that I never really ran out of mana while running dungeons or in PvP.

For me it's ALL about the regen. Regen is king.
I stayed in light armor, and took the passives there that helped, like Evocation and Recovery.

I had so much offense, and since I came with a tank built in (clannfear) my survive rate was quite good.
Now.... how will I morph my Twilight?
Dude.... I have no idea lol
BOTH options rule!

[Revehn]

That is very interesting to read...

Daedric Curse is a must have ?
Also, is Clannfear really that interesting with Winged ? How do you keep your health up ?

[mageguy]

Originally Posted by Revehn That is very interesting to read... Daedric Curse is a must have ? Also, is Clannfear really that interesting with Winged ? How do you keep your health up ?

The Clann acts very much like a tank (as long as I don't go in too early). I often toss up a curse to send the clann and winged in, and they do their thing for a tick or two, then I start in.
This assures my tank summon does his job.
The winged is nice for the dps.

I'm honestly not sure if I'll morph the winged to heal me when I get low, or to give me increased mana regen.
If I do the regen it adds to my "infinite mana" concept for dungeons. If I do the heal, then I'll basically be my own self contained party, with a tank, two ranged dps (me and the winged), and then the winged as my healer.
So I really don't know.

Keeping my health up is trivial. I rarely get hit.
I lose 20% mana from having two summons out, but I have the one passive that negates 10% of that. And then I have the one passive that restores 10% mana if one of them dies, which offsets the cost of resummoning but about 50%.

At level 16 my clannfear was able to replace the tank in my party when I ran BC.
But then, lets be honest, at 16 you're over powered for that dungeon anyway. So that's not a great example.

The most painful part was hitting the soft cap on magicka. I crashed into that wall at level 10.
Which sucked. But it is what it is.
Players doing what I'm doing would break the game if you didn't hit it early, I just wish you didn't hit it SO early. :-/

In short though, I'm a one trick pony.
And since you can reset attributes and skills, I think I'll probably go melee vampire once I figure out where the vampires are in game. lol

I don't think curse is a requirement. It's just a low magicka cost spell to cast for it's dps output. That makes it desirable.
But by and large, I already know it won't be part of my level 30+ build.
But at low levels it's nice to take just because you can keep more dps ticking on the mob while you work a direct damage rotation.

[Revehn]

Thanks for the reply.
You're making me wonder about a summoner/mage's fury/dark magic with resto staff, blessing of prot for Clannfear, with mana regen for Winged...
I'll try that next beta !

[Callsign]

My current version of a Sorcerer tank build.

[ablueman]

Originally Posted by Callsign My current version of a Sorcerer tank build.

You cant use skills from 2 different weapons at the same time bud. otherwise fairly similar to what I'm aiming for although I thought about putting more CC in place and swapping between resto and sword n board.

The only other thing Im worried about is whether I will do enough dmg with all my skills being defence and not improving my weapon damage. No point in tanking if you cant maintain enough hate/aggro to keep the mobs on you unless your soloing a lot or kill things quick enough.


Whatever you do to start a sorc, I don't see any reason not to get the first skill available in each skill line initially as early as possible. You will start getting the available points to get skills in that line (something people seem to be forgetting in their initial builds, unless they reset skills and (perhaps even then, if they make the first skill a pre-requisite)).

Crystal shard is an amazing skill to start with. Get this as early as possible. I cant see any build not benefiting from this initially .. its your bread and butter. CC and decent dmg. Get this as early as possible.

The unstable summon, 1 point gets you started in the summoner line if you want curse or the bound armour. Its surprisingly useful even if its just to distract a second foe whilst you deal with your primary target.

Mages fury, is a bit more of a choice, but I really wanted lighting form and I needed something to get it. Plus, its great for spamming some quick dmg to finish things off. especially when you mix soul trap and this both with the mana recover morph.

If you get all of them you pretty much kill everything before it gets to you making for faster leveling. Reset stills later for your proper build probably at about 15 when you get to swap weapons etc. you can pretty much level to 15 with skills and no weapon as a sorc. All you needs a bit of mana regen.

[Callsign]

Originally Posted by ablueman You cant use skills from 2 different weapons at the same time bud. otherwise fairly similar to what I'm aiming for although I thought about putting more CC in place and swapping between resto and sword n board. The only other thing Im worried about is whether I will do enough dmg with all my skills being defence and not improving my weapon damage. No point in tanking if you cant maintain enough hate/aggro to keep the mobs on you unless your soloing a lot or kill things quick enough. Whatever you do to start a sorc, I don't see any reason not to get the first skill available in each skill line initially as early as possible. You will start getting the available points to get skills in that line (something people seem to be forgetting in their initial builds, unless they reset skills and (perhaps even then, if they make the first skill a pre-requisite)). Crystal shard is an amazing skill to start with. Get this as early as possible. I cant see any build not benefiting from this initially .. its your bread and butter. CC and decent dmg. Get this as early as possible. The unstable summon, 1 point gets you started in the summoner line if you want curse or the bound armour. Its surprisingly useful even if its just to distract a second foe whilst you deal with your primary target. Mages fury, is a bit more of a choice, but I really wanted lighting form and I needed something to get it. Plus, its great for spamming some quick dmg to finish things off. especially when you mix soul trap and this both with the mana recover morph. If you get all of them you pretty much kill everything before it gets to you making for faster leveling. Reset stills later for your proper build probably at about 15 when you get to swap weapons etc. you can pretty much level to 15 with skills and no weapon as a sorc. All you needs a bit of mana regen.

You can indeed use skills from any tree with any weapon. There are no restrictions. It's a feature of the game. I was doing it in beta. One thing I do need to change is the passives in the One Hand and Shield tree as they are not going to benefit a Sorcerer tank who is going to use a staff.

I considered picking up the taunt in the Undaunted tree as it is a range taunt, but lacks considerably to the taunt in the One Hand and Shield tree and would really only benefit someone if they wanted to kite a mob around.

I also changed the #5 skill to Dampen Magic to act as an all around Damage shield instead of Bound Aegis, which only increases armor at a cost of Magicka, and the Ultimate to Absorption Field as an enemy control + health and magicka regen source. I'm torn on the Ultimate that I really want to use as there does not seem to be one that covers multiple situations very well.

[ablueman]

Originally Posted by Callsign You can indeed use skills from any tree with any weapon. There are no restrictions. It's a feature of the game. I was doing it in beta. One thing I do need to change is the passives in the One Hand and Shield tree as they are not going to benefit a Sorcerer tank who is going to use a staff. I considered picking up the taunt in the Undaunted tree as it is a range taunt, but lacks considerably to the taunt in the One Hand and Shield tree and would really only benefit someone if they wanted to kite a mob around. I also changed the #5 skill to Dampen Magic to act as an all around Damage shield instead of Bound Aegis, which only increases armor at a cost of Magicka, and the Ultimate to Absorption Field as an enemy control + health and magicka regen source. I'm torn on the Ultimate that I really want to use as there does not seem to be one that covers multiple situations very well.

Hang on, You can use any skill from any skill tree with any weapon, however you CANT use a weapon specific skill unless your using that weapon. At least thats my understanding.

I could be wrong but I am fairly sure thats what I was seeing in the beta.

If your sure thats true then I will be significantly changing my build lol.

As far as the ultimate, I only used negate magic which was useful, but i think at least initially I will be swapping it out for Storm Atronach. It tanks and does dmg. AoE if you morph it right..

[Callsign]

Originally Posted by ablueman Hang on, You can use any skill from any skill tree with any weapon, however you CANT use a weapon specific skill unless your using that weapon. At least thats my understanding. I could be wrong but I am fairly sure thats what I was seeing in the beta. If your sure thats true then I will be significantly changing my build lol. As far as the ultimate, I only used negate magic which was useful, but i think at least initially I will be swapping it out for Storm Atronach. It tanks and does dmg. AoE if you morph it right..

You can use weapon skills with any weapon, but you cannot benefit from the passives in a weapon tree unless you are using that weapon. It would be pretty bad on their part if they said you could not use any skill outside out your class skills and weapon that you have equipped. It would ruin one of the main features of the game. I can see it said from players now. You mean I have to have a Resto staff equipped to heal myself?

However, the tanking style that I am building for would benefit considerably more to have a range taunt as my "spam" attack is ranged, and melee would get damaged by the shield effect. It's something to look into, but I won't know until I actually get this build set up in game, one of the deciding factors for man builds out there.

I'm not sold on the Storm Atronach as an Ultimate for a tank. It has a small radius and would require enemies to be stacked to get the full benefit, which is unlikely to happen with how the AI works in the game. I would rather use the Mage's Guild Ultimate morphed to Ice Comet that would knockback and snare targets for control. It has a similar range, but once again, may benefit more on the build that I chose. The benefits of Absorption Field are more situational. Sure there is a stun and silence effect, but the dispel effect requires enemies to put down placed effects on a consistent enough basis to benefit from the 15% health and magicka return.

[ablueman]

Originally Posted by Callsign You can use weapon skills with any weapon, but you cannot benefit from the passives in a weapon tree unless you are using that weapon. It would be pretty bad on their part if they said you could not use any skill outside out your class skills and weapon that you have equipped. It would ruin one of the main features of the game. I can see it said from players now. You mean I have to have a Resto staff equipped to heal myself? However, the tanking style that I am building for would benefit considerably more to have a range taunt as my "spam" attack is ranged, and melee would get damaged by the shield effect. It's something to look into, but I won't know until I actually get this build set up in game, one of the deciding factors for man builds out there. I'm not sold on the Storm Atronach as an Ultimate for a tank. It has a small radius and would require enemies to be stacked to get the full benefit, which is unlikely to happen with how the AI works in the game. I would rather use the Mage's Guild Ultimate morphed to Ice Comet that would knockback and snare targets for control. It has a similar range, but once again, may benefit more on the build that I chose. The benefits of Absorption Field are more situational. Sure there is a stun and silence effect, but the dispel effect requires enemies to put down placed effects on a consistent enough basis to benefit from the 15% health and magicka return.

That clears up my understanding, I think I assumed the passives situation was for active too. Thanks

Still considering race for mine. I think the little extra dmg possible with High Elf sells it over Breton. But I am wondering if with the softcap on regens etc, whether either breton or high elf will be worth it. Should I get racials that beef up my secondary regens that I want or adds to health recovery. Or will I regret it as the regen scales up and I want to put extra on mana regen.

I wonder what the max magicka regen will be at 50 and if you can hit it without racials / sorc skills and Equipment. Can I afford to split focus maybe go redguard or nord or imperial or something strange. lol

If you could pump mana and stamina regen enough you could really improve Dark Exchange and get massive healing / mana though that. You only need to be able to hit Dark Exchange every 10 seconds or so and you can refill your health and mana pretty much.

Will racial healing or skills affect incoming health from that? 1200 health a second is massive even without +5% here and there.

[Callsign]

Originally Posted by ablueman That clears up my understanding, I think I assumed the passives situation was for active too. Thanks Still considering race for mine. I think the little extra dmg possible with High Elf sells it over Breton. But I am wondering if with the softcap on regens etc, whether either breton or high elf will be worth it. Should I get racials that beef up my secondary regens that I want or adds to health recovery. Or will I regret it as the regen scales up and I want to put extra on mana regen. I wonder what the max magicka regen will be at 50 and if you can hit it without racials / sorc skills and Equipment. Can I afford to split focus maybe go redguard or something strange. lol

Breton is definitely the go to race for spellcasters or heavy magicka users. Magicka recovery is easily capped, making High Elf lackluster, while magicka cost reduction seems to have no cap. In the long run at level 50 with gear, racials will mean something to a certain extent, but if you are beating yourself over whether to play a race you love over a race that has better passives, go with the race that you love. Racials won't matter that much.

[ablueman]

Originally Posted by Callsign Breton is definitely the go to race for spellcasters or heavy magicka users. Magicka recovery is easily capped, making High Elf lackluster, while magicka cost reduction seems to have no cap. In the long run at level 50 with gear, racials will mean something to a certain extent, but if you are beating yourself over whether to play a race you love over a race that has better passives, go with the race that you love. Racials won't matter that much.

I have no race I really love, im all about the passives. But as you say if its a passive that can be capped, my gut feeling is that its worthless getting that racial and that you will be able to cap it in another way.

If you cant cap spell reduction cost that does sound great, but will you need to reduce cost if you can just spam dark exchange and get the benefit of even greater health recovery.

You can enchant spell cost reduction cant you ?

[Callsign]

Originally Posted by ablueman If you could pump mana and stamina regen enough you could really improve Dark Exchange and get massive healing / mana though that. You only need to be able to hit Dark Exchange every 10 seconds or so and you can refill your health and mana pretty much. Will racial healing or skills affect incoming health from that? 1200 health a second is massive even without +5% here and there.

I believe that Dark Exchange is a must and staple to any heavy Magicka build that a Sorcerer may have. It is just way to good to pass up and it is probably the best magicka return in the game, by far. A larger stamina pool won't mean anything with the ability as it converts by percentage, but a player is going to need a certain level of Stamina regen in order to have infinite resources.

I don't think it is worth rolling a race like Redguard for Stamina regen, as Magicka reduction will mean more in the long run.

[Callsign]

Originally Posted by ablueman You can enchant spell cost reduction cant you ?

Hard to say. http://www.esohead.com/items/26614-g...ent-of-magicka would suggest maximum Magicka is increased, but there does not seem to be a magicka reduction enchantment.

[ablueman]

Originally Posted by Callsign I believe that Dark Exchange is a must and staple to any heavy Magicka build that a Sorcerer may have. It is just way to good to pass up and it is probably the best magicka return in the game, by far. A larger stamina pool won't mean anything with the ability as it converts by percentage, but a player is going to need a certain level of Stamina regen in order to have infinite resources. I don't think it is worth rolling a race like Redguard for Stamina regen, as Magicka reduction will mean more in the long run.

I do understand that its done on percentage. What im more interested in is whether you will need spell reduction so much at level 50. When you will have such a large pot and such a high amount of magicka incoming from dark exchange. I guess we will have to wait and see.

Will you be in Daggerfall or are you going to be in another alliance, it would be interesting to play alongside you in some ways and see how different they are

Originally Posted by Callsign Hard to say. http://www.esohead.com/items/26614-g...ent-of-magicka would suggest maximum Magicka is increased, but there does not seem to be a magicka reduction enchantment.

Im sure I enchanted something, I think it was 6 points less or something not a % though

[Callsign]

Originally Posted by ablueman I do understand that its done on percentage. What im more interested in is whether you will need spell reduction so much at level 50. When you will have such a large pot and such a high amount of magicka incoming from dark exchange. I guess we will have to wait and see. Will you be in Daggerfall or are you going to be in another alliance, it would be interesting to play alongside you in some ways and see how different they are

As a Sorcerer tank, the amount of spell reduction you will get from a Breton will be nice, but not game changing. I think the Magicka reduction from Breton on abilities will help with your Stamina over time. Less cost on abilities means more time for Stamina to regen, so it may naturally balance itself and may have been a design intention.

I am going to be rolling Aldmeri Dominion with some friends at the start. However, I plan on making my first cross faction alt for the Daggerfall Covenant. I am most likely going to be rolling a Templar tank to begin with, but I thought I would theorycraft all of the tanks and see what kind of styles and builds I could come up with. This is my current Templar build. I find it rather strong, having the ability to useful is almost every situation without giving up anything. It's a full Stamina build, where as the Sorcerer is a full Magicka build.

I'll be posting my ideas and builds on the officials forums when the game launches, in class, tanking, and healing forums (I do have plans to do some healing). Two abilities I see as a must for Sorcerer tanking are Dark Exchange for Magicka and Health regen when needed and Force Shock in the Desto Staff tree because it provides so many benefits that are useful for Sorcerer tanking within the ability on top of it being a ranged ability.

[ablueman]

Originally Posted by Callsign As a Sorcerer tank, the amount of spell reduction you will get from a Breton will be nice, but not game changing. I think the Magicka reduction from Breton on abilities will help with your Stamina over time. Less cost on abilities means more time for Stamina to regen, so it may naturally balance itself and may have been a design intention. I am going to be rolling Aldmeri Dominion with some friends at the start. However, I plan on making my first cross faction alt for the Daggerfall Covenant. I am most likely going to be rolling a Templar tank to begin with, but I thought I would theorycraft all of the tanks and see what kind of styles and builds I could come up with. This is my current Templar build. I find it rather strong, having the ability to useful is almost every situation without giving up anything. It's a full Stamina build, where as the Sorcerer is a full Magicka build. I'll be posting my ideas and builds on the officials forums when the game launches, in class, tanking, and healing forums (I do have plans to do some healing). Two abilities I see as a must for Sorcerer tanking are Dark Exchange for Magicka and Health regen when needed and Force Shock in the Desto Staff tree because it provides so many benefits that are useful for Sorcerer tanking within the ability on top of it being a ranged ability.

I will prob be going Ebonheart, strangely enough I preferred the starting zone though most people complained it wasn't as good as the dominion zone. Although in fairness, I have no friends (sadface) that are looking to play this game really so it doesn't matter too much if I change my mind.

I might have to look in to that skill, I ignored it previously as I didnt really want to get stuck with a desto staff. Now I realise I can have active abilities without I may reconsider. It does look immensely useful, looks like the morph of it can even CC up to 2 additional targets potentially.

I dont mind having a resto staff as a swap out. I will be doing some backup healing potentially.



Any idea how unholy knowledge might affect Dark Exchange?

p.s. Templar build looks interesting

[Callsign]

Originally Posted by ablueman I will prob be going Ebonheart, strangely enough I preferred the starting zone though most people complained it wasn't as good as the dominion zone. Although in fairness, I have no friends (sadface) that are looking to play this game really so it doesn't matter too much if I change my mind. I might have to look in to that skill, I ignored it previously as I didnt really want to get stuck with a desto staff. Now I realise I can have active abilities without I may reconsider. I dont mind having a resto staff as a swap out. It does look immensely useful, looks like the morph of it can even CC up to 2 additional targets potentially.

It's quite a good skill that has a ridiculous amount of benefits and it works quite well in my Sorcerer tank build that will be using the Destro staff. I've been looking at my Sorcerer tank build closer since we started talking and I think it does work better as a ranged control tank. I altered the build a little bit to reflect on that mentality. Range taunt + Ice Comet provides more control without having to run up to enemies to use the melee taunt or wait for enemies to have ground effects to dispel from Negate Magic.