Quantcast ZoS: Make Titles etcpp. readonly and not changeable by addons - Page 3 - ESOUI
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07/18/17, 11:35 PM   #41
silvereyes
 
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http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1...Reminders.html
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1...tomTitles.html

I want to propose a compromise, since there are two wildly different points of view here and I don't want this to descend into something toxic.

Those two addons above will disable the libraries that are presumably so offensive. Let's see if they end up being popular at all. If they end up being popular, then the devs can use that information to evaluate if the libraries are doing more harm than good and either deserve to be removed or disclaimers need added.

If the addons above prove unpopular with the rest of the communtiy, then OP et al, please just use them yourself and let the poor devs be.
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07/19/17, 12:35 AM   #42
iwontsay
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I was already thinking along the same lines. Write stub libraries containing no-op replacements of these functions and raise the version number to "infinite" so that they will override the real versions.

I abstained from doing this because it could set off an edit war no one really wants.

Add to that, twice already - at least as I know of - an Easter Egg in some addon set off a thread with confused users asking "where did that come from?", often enough falsely placing blame or praise unto ZOS, and only after several days someone found the real culprit.

That definitely shows that these two libraries are only the part of a bigger issue and the reason why I proposed that addon descriptions should at least mention any additional functionality besides the intended one.

WORSE, Easter Eggs can bug. AFAIK one of them did bug on me. If it happens large scale, then you have a ****storm in the making where feces are wildly flung around, hitting people unrelated to the issue.

Last edited by iwontsay : 07/19/17 at 12:47 AM.
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07/19/17, 03:54 PM   #43
Baertram
 
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When you put in work in this thread and offer a solution to "my problem" you are basically doing work trying to control me here and to control your addon users. To conclude...
So basically each solution we provide is not good enough for you, except the one you want: Remove the library.
Maybe the control stuff is not that trivial.

And btw: some libraries were developed and tested by several, and not only one author. The time and work, that you only describe as "copied to your addon", invested is not visible to you...

As I said before:
No one forces you or others to use
AddOns.
Disable them, remove the files from the addon, use the batch script Manavortex provided, or simply enjoy the funny (or RPG) titles.
But please not make everyone pissed even more because you fight Facebook, or God knows which of the social media platforms is your windmill. This is no data mining and you are totally anonymous.
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07/19/17, 04:54 PM   #44
Anceane
 
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in this whole thread something amaze me.

I am user mainly. I do not use minion. I install myself every addon. And i do look at what is inside each folder of addons, not because i am paranoid, but because i am interested, and because sometimes i just want to change little things.

With years, i learned how to use the -- before a line i want to remove, i learned how to replace fonts, to change .dds with one i want (that i create myself), change size or transparence of things, and to replace library that some author's addon forget to update (no critics, i would forget those myself if i was doing what you do)

So my point is : if the OP is not happy with some addons, nothing bare him to modify a line, supress a lib, by himself. I know a lot of users that do as me, some are even very comfortable to do so and they do not need to make such a mess as this post do.
Some users even made some great additions to addons. Some authors removed themselves parts of addons they were not satisfied with. Nothing is perfect :P

We users are not sheep, nore stupid. We do not need a drama to make realise that suddenly a library which is openly posted in the download, is hidden is some addons. Nothing is hidden. The embedded library is mentionned in the .txt, and the library itself is downloadable by anyone,

If you dont trust an addon, then stop to use it. If you dont trust any addon, then just stop to come here and avoid this place. No one is forcing you with a gun to download them, to use them. If you decide to download them you make your decision. Same as if you buy a book. You do not know what is inside. The title could be sweet and the story totally macabre giving nightmare. So what ? you would yell at the author ? you decided by yourself to buy it.

Here you dont even buy, you benefit from a gift. Each addon i use is for me a gift. The author decided to do it for their use, and then offered to share thinking we might enjoy. And i enjoy. Of course i do not like all addons : i do not download them. But this is my taste, the addon is enjoyed by others.

For me this whole thread is a drama. i hate drama. There is enough in real life all day long from every part of world.

So to the OP : if you do not like an addon or part of it, do not download it or modify it. You can without breaking an addon using this -- to *silence* a line, or a library that is just optional.
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07/19/17, 05:02 PM   #45
decay2
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Originally Posted by jpdouble69 View Post
All authors that posted here in this thread are arguing pretty much the same way.
They say that it is their right to implement any function into their addons and hide them to the user who is installing the addon. They do not document these function(s) nor do they give the user any option in the settings - the user has to execute them in the client - that's all.

The authors that are posting here all have these kinds of invisible/hidden functions implemented.

They argue that they put in a lot of work into it and it it their addon(s). So they have the right to do whatever they want.
There is not a single author in this thread having doubts about the way these functions are handled and distributed nor that they might change it in the future.

You can call it coincidence, bias or whatever you want. The issue stays the same: The user has to execute this stuff not knowing about it. No declaration, no option, no control, no choice, nothing. That is the way these authors want it. It was not done that way by accident, it was meant to be exactly that way.


I hope more and more people will become aware. Then there is a good chance that users concerns and rights are not taken lightly anymore and changes are being made by the authors – not ZoS.
I did not do any of the things you claimed and I feel a bit offended about that.

Of course I can do whatever I want with my addons because I write them for myself and maybe a few friends. I offer them on esoui because its a nice framework to publish the addon, thats all. Anyone who wishes to have a different addon can do it themselves, like I did. Of course I will always consider feedback but in the end I make the decision what goes into my addon and what not. If there is an issue with any ZOS terms or terms here on ESOUI I might consider to abide the rules or simply take it off from here and distribute my addon a different way.
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07/19/17, 10:00 PM   #46
iwontsay
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Originally Posted by decay2 View Post
I did not do any of the things you claimed and I feel a bit offended about that.
(posted in response to jpdouble69)

Seconded. The wild accusation that every author does that is as wrong as it is offensive to me, especially since I already posted twice the 'guidelines' I set for myself (be upfront with the functionality of the addon) and would dearly like to see all around.
  • No hidden/undocumented functions.
  • If there is a functionality besides the main purpose of the addon, please mention it at the very least.

Users should not have to ask themselves "is it a bug or a feature?" if they encounter unexpected or worse unreasonable behavior.
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07/20/17, 12:27 AM   #47
Baertram
 
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Thank you Ancean, at least some users are able to "do the job themselves" instead of moaning

A small correction, so everyone knows how to comment lines in addons and mainfest files:
So to the OP : if you do not like an addon or part of it, do not download it or modify it. You can without breaking an addon using this -- to *silence* a line, or a library that is just optional.
The manifest TXT file needs a ## in front of a line to comment it. You are not able to use -- in there.
Only the lua files use -- as single line, and --[
...
]]
as multi line comments.
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07/20/17, 01:47 AM   #48
Anceane
 
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Originally Posted by Baertram View Post
Thank you Ancean, at least some users are able to "do the job themselves" instead of moaning

A small correction, so everyone knows how to comment lines in addons and mainfest files:


The manifest TXT file needs a ## in front of a line to comment it. You are not able to use -- in there.
Only the lua files use -- as single line, and --[
...
]]
as multi line comments.
haha oups sorry, thanks a lot for this ))
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07/20/17, 09:16 AM   #49
jpdouble69
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Originally Posted by silvereyes View Post
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1...Reminders.html
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1...tomTitles.html

I want to propose a compromise, since there are two wildly different points of view here and I don't want this to descend into something toxic.

Those two addons above will disable the libraries that are presumably so offensive. Let's see if they end up being popular at all. If they end up being popular, then the devs can use that information to evaluate if the libraries are doing more harm than good and either deserve to be removed or disclaimers need added.

If the addons above prove unpopular with the rest of the communtiy, then OP et al, please just use them yourself and let the poor devs be.
Well first of all, thank you very much! I downloaded both files and installed them. Is there a way i can test it on the client to see if it works or provide any feedback?
This way me and others can provide feedback in case it won't work in the future.

Also, I am wondering about commenting on Disable Custom Titles and posting additional informations like linking to this thread and giving examples of addons that heven't done any documentation of the EasterEgg.
I understand you want to stay neutral as much possible so i ask here if that is okay for you.

Originally Posted by iwontsay View Post
That definitely shows that these two libraries are only the part of a bigger issue and the reason why I proposed that addon descriptions should at least mention any additional functionality besides the intended one.

WORSE, Easter Eggs can bug. AFAIK one of them did bug on me. If it happens large scale, then you have a ****storm in the making where feces are wildly flung around, hitting people unrelated to the issue.
I second your concerns about this being a bigger issue especially after reading most comments here from addon authors that included "EasterEggs".

But it is a good starting point that these two new addons exists and can be found. I know a lot of players that test new addons like me and see it via Minion (sort by date).

Next step would be to inform a bigger community and posting it on ADD-ONS & UI MODS so more people can make up there on decision.




@Baertram
I edited and rephrased my starting post (+title) a couple of days ago - but the new title wasn't carried over in the forum list.


@Anceane
It is a discussion and controversy about a topic. The topic is if and how to inform users about addon functions.
If you crawl through every code before updating and not using Minion that's perfectly fine. Telling users to use "--" for things they don't know about in the first place is misleading. The discussion is not a drama, the "-- solution" you found for yourself isn't either nor your pretentious "we" is.
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07/21/17, 06:06 AM   #50
Anceane
 
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Originally Posted by jpdouble69 View Post
@Anceane
It is a discussion and controversy about a topic. The topic is if and how to inform users about addon functions.
If you crawl through every code before updating and not using Minion that's perfectly fine. Telling users to use "--" for things they don't know about in the first place is misleading. The discussion is not a drama, the "-- solution" you found for yourself isn't either nor your pretentious "we" is.
pre·ten·tious
prəˈten(t)SHəs/
adjective
adjective: pretentious

attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed.


First you do not know who i am in real life. You can only suppose that i do not understand or that i want to show off.
So far since i am on this forum, i never hide the fact that i had difficulties with LUA and the way it is working. My only help comes from having created some years ago my websites and to remember some html things.
i have more than often asked silly questions and asked Author's addon to help me with little things that i could not do because it was out of my comprehension.

Now on the little things i mentionned, those are nothing that simple understanding after comparing two files. You call me out pretentious for that. Fine. Personally i see it as a way to learn something.

But as you go as name/adjectif calling, dont spend more time to quote me, i just put you on ignore.
I have not the will nore the time to deal with your petty problems.
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Last edited by Anceane : 07/21/17 at 06:08 AM.
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07/21/17, 01:26 PM   #51
jpdouble69
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I asked you to stay on the topic but instead you don't.

Instead you mock me about grammar and ignore people how have an opinion you do not like...

Originally Posted by Anceane View Post
pre·ten·tious
prəˈten(t)SHəs/
adjective
adjective: pretentious

But as you go as name/adjectif calling, dont spend more time to quote me, i just put you on ignore.
I have not the will nore the time to deal with your petty problems.
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07/21/17, 11:26 PM   #52
manavortex
 
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To be fair, you're the one who has been calling them names, and overall your whole behaviour is pretty aggressive. (I'm on the autism spectrum, and even I notice).
I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by communicating here, but the effect you're having right now is to antagonise everyone. You might want to reconsider your wording?
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07/22/17, 03:57 AM   #53
jpdouble69
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I have considered rephrasing and have done so. I rewrote my inital post and changed the title (that was not carried over in the forums overview).

What i try to achieve is making authors sensible and inform their users. Show them ways so they can turn it off but inform them in the first place and don't just run these unlinked function hidden on the clients permanently.
There are authors that argue hidden/un-documented functions are a no-go. For others it is not a problem, others might not have thought about it before.

Some authors argue it is too much work to inform or change something that initially was launched hidden.

Other authors say they will not include such things unknown from their users. And even a workaround/compromise has been introduced by two addons disabling hidden functions.
I like it though it does not change the issue for many users. They still don't know so why should they install them?

But it is a starting point and it is good feeling to see that there are people who care. I want to inform as many authors and users and make them sensible. And i would love to see some progress and improvements in the future.
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07/22/17, 03:36 PM   #54
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Ultimately I think the issue here is that this is a hobby. I believe most authors strive to document their features and list all changes clearly. However in practice, in the amount of time it takes to code features or if you're handling a lot, its easy to forget small things you did. On top of that, its easy to be complacent or lazy about certain things.

I don't feel this is really an issue because authors are not held to some professional standard nor should they be. As long as an addon operates close to how its advertised thats fair enough game. You reserve the right to discontinue use of an addon if the way it is managed doesn't suit you.

I try to document most of what I do with LUI but theres a ****load of code packed in there, and a lot of old stuff I haven't had time to resort or deprecate where neccessary. It doesn't help I'm torn between enjoying the coding and the general game and the aggresive toxic marketing scheme they're running putting me so far off I can hardly stomach it. I'm sure theres plenty of things I've failed to document, but I just don't have the willpower to reorganize the addon description. Maybe if I decide to continue overhauling things down the line.

Also another thing to keep in mind here is most of us are stretched pretty damn thin. Relevant to the user base ESO probably has one of the smallest active addon development communties. If someone decides to stop working on their addon its entirely likely nobody is going to pick it up. Or in some cases one of us pokes at it a bit to keep it functioning with each API update.a
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07/23/17, 07:12 AM   #55
code65536
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Yes, yes, we addon authors can do whatever we want. We're not forcing people to use our addons. Etc.

But just because we can doesn't mean that we should. I don't care about what we can do, but I care deeply about what we should do.

And I'll be honest here: I absolutely detest LibCustomTitles as a matter of principle. This library simply should not exist. It does not provide the user any benefit whatsoever and it alters functionality in the game unnecessarily and quietly. Is it malicious? No. But it is a breach of the implicit trust between users and addon devs, and I would never include that library in any of the addons that I write. It's a harmless breach of trust, to be sure, but still a breach.

It doesn't violate any rules per se, and it doesn't warrant any action from ZOS. But, again, there is a difference between "can" and "should". This is an matter of trust and principle. And it bothers me that so many in the addon dev community is dismissing this concern.

As for the update reminders, I have no issue with it in principle, because it does provide something valuable... in theory. However, in practice, it is just extra noise for the user. The reason is that this library simply checks to see if you have any addons whose target API version is lower than the game's current API version. It gives false positives for addons whose latest available (and perfectly functional) version is "outdated" because it has not had an API bump. And it gives false negatives for addons with critical bug fixes within the same API level. Since any user who is using an "outdated" addon is doing so explicitly (since the game automatically disables them every major patch, and the user has to manually reenable them), this library is unnecessary, given how it actually works in practice.
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05/21/18, 10:13 AM   #56
Ouch666
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undocumented functions are unacceptable, these two have now been removed, all future addons from these sources will be treated as suspect
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05/21/18, 12:45 PM   #57
Marazota
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Originally Posted by Ouch666 View Post
undocumented functions are unacceptable, these two have now been removed, all future addons from these sources will be treated as suspect
this is true or bull****?
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05/21/18, 08:01 PM   #58
Rhyono
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English is probably not his first language and he's simply referring to what he's done for himself.
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02/23/19, 12:49 AM   #59
Laicus
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Let the authors of mods do everything that is enough imagination and possibilities for modifying this already practically unmodifiable game! I continue to play this defective TES only thanks to mods, without mods, the game is so easy and stupid, where you are constantly led by the hand, that at first I was very sorry that I spent the money on it, only after installing a lot of mods, it became a little more interesting, but and they do not completely save, as there are too few opportunities for modification.
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08/28/19, 12:50 AM   #60
Marazota
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Custom Titles was removed from Dustman

is this what Ayantir, ex-author of it, will glad to see?
like maintainer of the addon doing such things?
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ESOUI » AddOns » AddOn Search/Requests » ZoS: Make Titles etcpp. readonly and not changeable by addons

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