Quantcast Sense of hopelessness/punishing diversity: Why CP will kill ESO. - ESOUI
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06/17/15, 01:59 PM   #1
Phinix
 
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Sense of hopelessness/punishing diversity: Why CP will kill ESO.

In pretty much every other MMO, developers realize the importance of reward and the PSYCHOLOGY OF HOPE. Perhaps they call it something different in the industry but basically, it is the idea that at any given point, regardless of your play style, there is a CHANCE for you to catch up at another play style, if you begin to apply yourself to it.

For example in ANY other MMO, you might be into PVP, RP, farming, questing, addon development, whatever. You may be months behind the raid or competitive PVP "scene", but in any other MMO that is OK because IF you decide to START applying yourself and dedicate a REASONABLE amount of time at it, there is a perception and fact that you can catch up.

A person with no raid gear can join a guild and get reasonably geared within a month or so, non-arena players can run battlegrounds for a few weeks and get geared enough to compete for "real" gear, etc.

This creates an atmosphere of diversity, where you don't perceive you are being punished for pretty much everything other than one mindless grind play style, which is what ESO was billed on. Yet ESO's counter-intuitive grind does the exact opposite. It absolutely KILLS diversity of play style!

In ESO unless you mindlessly grind 24/7 you will NEVER catch up because everything is behind a LINEAR TIME WALL. This means that if you enjoy RP, exploration, questing, PVP, or pretty much any sane behavior other than mindlessly grinding, and you later decide to apply yourself to some serious "end-game", there is absolutely no hope you will catch up in a reasonable time because the time it takes to catch up is linear, meaning you can't just join a good group and get geared, you MUST mindlessly grind grind grind.

There is NO chance (for a non-grinder) to be competitive in PVP against players who already have 700+ CP that can:
  • Roll-dodge literally forever thanks to maxed Tumbler trait.
  • Have impenetrable damage bubbles thanks to maxed Bastion trait.
  • Wrecking Blow for 30k (more than my HP) thanks to maxed Mighty trait.
  • Etc., etc., etc.

I have never seen a system that is so unfriendly to diversity of playstyle as ESO CP.

As an addon developer, I often I am wasting my time as all I get for my efforts to improve the lives of other gamers is months behind because I didn't spend that time grinding in cracked troll cave. In other games I at least felt like I had the luxury of devoting time to addon development without destroying my chance to be competitive in PVP or end-game.

This is total BS.

There needs to be some catch-up method for CP (no, giving the grinders XP potions does NOT solve anything), and a tiered limit to CP gain in a given expansion to slow down the no-lifers constantly chasing an unfair advantage in the name of "progress". ZOS needs to realize these are a MINORITY of players (most have classes, jobs, etc. and can't grind 24/7), bite the bullet and stop catering to them at the expense of your larger audience.

TELL ZOS!

Last edited by Phinix : 06/18/15 at 02:47 PM.
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06/17/15, 02:12 PM   #2
ahmetertem
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I aggree with you. ZO just did this for doing "new" things to game like Diablo 3... Even 300+ CP any noob will be untouchable. Being pro, talented or experienced is changes not so much. If you have CP, you're the king.

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06/17/15, 09:01 PM   #3
Werewolf Finds Dragon
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That's a ridiculous idea, frankly.

No game should ever appeal to all playstyles. Ever. There's a reason that video games don't do that. By your estimation, I should be able to finish Portal 2 easily by shooting people in the face, because my 'play style' happens to be Call of Duty. That's nonsense. That shows just how -- frankly -- spoiled MMO gamers have become, where they feel as they are are by right of birth assured to be able to enjoy an MMO in whatever way they deem desirable.

The Elder Scrolls Online has been small-group PvE focused for a long time, now. After the PvP flopped, as it does in every MMO foolhardy enough to include it, they turned their attentions to PvE. And the part of PvE that appeals to the vast majority of non-WoW playing MMO gamers is small group content. The thing is is that there's no point chasing WoW. Unless you can open your game with sixty raids, you've lost. You might as well base your game entirely around raiding.

Wildstar tried. It lost. It's a ghost town, now.

The developers have to do their best to develop for the largest demographic. And the largest demographic are those who play the game either solo or in a small group. Speaking from the point of profitability and sustainability, for the longevity of the game? They'd be better off dropping PvP, scaling 'group' dungeons to the number of people entering (rather than requiring a full party) and adding private versions of 'public' dungeons. That's not for me, that's just from observations of how I've seen the game played, and what people are saying online, in forums, and in the game's chat.

If you want them to overhaul PvP, you're asking them to work on something less than 5~ per cent of their players actually play. If PvP was popular, it would've been overhauled and fixed by now. It's just not a priority. You can't expect for it to be. They don't have WoW's money, they can't just throw money at working on something that such a small amount of the playerbase actually bothers with.

If 85~ per cent of the players were doing PvP, it'd be different.

Honestly, I'd advise playing a PvP-focused game. You'll feel better.

I would also advise not using obviously fallacious arguments and appeals to the crowd. I suspect that the people around here are smarter than that. I mean, honestly, including 'addon development' in bold as a gameplay style? Really now?

I would have empathised with your desire for PvP more if your post weren't so acerbic, demanding, egotistical, and self-entitled.
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06/17/15, 10:07 PM   #4
timidobserver
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Eh, your not going to be in the top 5 on the leadboards in your first raid, but you can easily complete all of the content in this game with a competitive score while having a low amount champion points. The same goes for PvP, though the CP advantage does weigh heavier on PVP than PVE.
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06/18/15, 03:35 PM   #5
Phinix
 
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Originally Posted by Werewolf Finds Dragon View Post
I would also advise not using obviously fallacious arguments and appeals to the crowd. I suspect that the people around here are smarter than that. I mean, honestly, including 'addon development' in bold as a gameplay style? Really now?

I would have empathised with your desire for PvP more if your post weren't so acerbic, demanding, egotistical, and self-entitled.
What aspect of the argument specifically did you find fallacious and acerbic, demanding, egotistical, and self-entitled? I changed "addon development" being bolded if that is what hung you up, though I do spend more of my (paid sub) time writing addons than I do playing. I also bolded the important point which you appear to have skimmed over:

IF you decide to START applying yourself and dedicate a REASONABLE amount of time at it, there is a perception and fact that you can catch up.
This was never an argument to "make all play styles equal" which you appear to have taken it as. This was quite obviously (to me) about having the choice to CHANGE play style mid-stride and be able to catch up and be competitive in a reasonable amount of time (rather than an ever-widening LINEAR GAP) like in most other MMO's.

By "linear" I mean that the longer you spend not grinding, the more time you will have to spend grinding to catch up and be competitive. You are punished for a diverse play style in a directly proportional way without some catch-up method like other games, and that is simply BAD DESIGN.

Even their own devs have said so, and indicated they are working on changes.

Speaking of fallacious and egotistical:

That shows just how -- frankly -- spoiled MMO gamers have become, where they feel as they are are by right of birth assured to be able to enjoy an MMO in whatever way they deem desirable.
If that isn't a Non Sequitur, Ad Hominem argument I don't no what is. No one is claiming to deserve anything "by right of birth." No one is even making any demands. All I said was, that a catch-up method is required to prevent a linear power gap causing imbalance in competitive PVP. Not sure how you read into that one.

Your entire argument is a Straw Man logical fallacy in that my point was never about "overhauling PVP" as you argue at some length. That is merely your misrepresentation (or honest misinterpretation?) or my position.

Really, much of your argument seems based in the general Rules of Disinformation (whether intended or second nature). See, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt in parenthesis!

You also resort to base Ad Hominem attacks at several points, but I'll let that slide because "frankly my dear, I don't give a damn!"

Also...

No game should ever appeal to all playstyles.


One last point. I never meant to imply that I feel making addons to be a "waste of time" in itself. I enjoy making addons, otherwise I wouldn't do it. HOWEVER, I DO feel that it leaves me behind the curve of ever hoping to be competitive in this game as unlike others there is no real way to catch up to the 24/7 grinder crowd.

Last edited by Phinix : 06/18/15 at 03:39 PM.
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07/13/17, 07:23 PM   #6
tigersong
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Not much to add, but I hate it when getting to the endgame and then engaging in PVP is the sole purpose of a game. I saw what happened in The Old Republic- you could be simply filling in a planetary map and if you wander into a PVP zone- say good night, Gracie.

And here you have (to my knowledge) a game that focuses more on cooperation than competition. All three alliances, while they have their differences, want the same things- someone on the Ruby Throne and an end to the threat of Molag Bal.

It isn't about getting to the top and then fighting other players for me. It's about enjoying the journey- in one of the most beautiful fantasy worlds I've ever seen.
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07/14/17, 03:07 AM   #7
Dolgubon
 
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You say there's no catchup mechanic, but there is. Earlier CP takes less experience, but also every time they raise the CP cap, they don't actually raise the overall amount of experience to reach that. (I think, at the very least they do adjust the experience curve so each CP point is less. Maybe someone can find something that actually mentions that) So if you came back in say, a year, the CP cap would be 120 higher but you'd still need to grind for roughly the same amount of time (assuming exp. rate is the same)
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07/14/17, 08:45 AM   #8
Ayantir
 
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You need to do the same amount of XP for CP 1 to cap since they rebalanced CP progression with I think it was Orsinium.
So 1-cap in TG is same than 1-cap in U15.

If newcomers are more and more casual, it's another issue.

The gear cap is hitted in 1 day after being CP1 with a decent playtime without xp pot. (I did it for a friend and I didn't farmed anchors).

And pvp is not the sole purpose of eso. there is pve too with 1/4/12 player content. eso is not pvp, it's a themepark. you maybe play in the wrong carousel.


In pretty much every other MMO, developers realize the importance of reward and the PSYCHOLOGY OF HOPE
Game frustration is also a good method to entertain the content.

I have never seen a system that is so unfriendly to diversity of playstyle as ESO CP.
There is worse, a lot worse. ESO is a friendly fgame. Hardcore players of eso are average in corean games per ex.


There is NO chance (for a non-grinder) to be competitive in PVP against players who already have 700+ CP
Same against League of Legends eSports players. Simply .. don't fight them?
You don't have to fight the most experienced players. just fight people of your level. After if strong players are authorized in newbie pvp areas, I agree, ZOS could do something.



I didn't exp since more than a year and I'm still over the cap and I'm not a grinder.
But what I name a grinder is not the same thing as you consider. It's only subjective point of view.



Just don't focus on this, play as you like and consider content not for you.
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07/22/17, 02:19 PM   #9
ArtOfShred
 
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Just for the record the original post here was made over 2 years ago (before catchup mechanics were implemented) and probably before CP was capped.

Although I'm sure Phinix probably feels pretty similarly about it still (for good reason, its a pretty **** system).
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07/22/17, 02:21 PM   #10
Ayantir
 
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Damn, I did saw necropost. sorry.
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07/22/17, 07:38 PM   #11
Dolgubon
 
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Originally Posted by ArtOfShred View Post
Just for the record the original post here was made over 2 years ago (before catchup mechanics were implemented) and probably before CP was capped.

Although I'm sure Phinix probably feels pretty similarly about it still (for good reason, its a pretty **** system).
Whoops. Saw 'new forum' post lol.
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