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01/21/16, 12:41 PM   #1
sirinsidiator
 
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Incoming change to combat events

I just read this post on the official forums and can't help to wonder how this might work?
Originally Posted by Gina Bruno
In our next incremental patch, we'll be including a fix so any addon that assigns names to combat events that don't involve the player will no longer be able to do so.
Can we please have an explanation how this will affect combat events before it goes live?
I am worried that it might unintentionally break other things like the last few "fixes" that got hurriedly put in an incremental patch.
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01/21/16, 01:40 PM   #2
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It will broke this addon :
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1...oupDamage.html

For others, nothing to worry.

Guess combat_events for groupX will just won't be broadcasted to group, or anonymized that's all.
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01/21/16, 02:01 PM   #3
ZOS_ChipHilseberg
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Combat events not involving the player have a number of things stripped out including the source and target names. When unit ids were added, the source unit id was not being stripped out. It is now.
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01/21/16, 02:47 PM   #4
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Ok. So this means when neither source nor target name equals player name they will be cleared, or is there more to it?
For example ACTION_RESULT_KILLING_BLOW fires without an abilityName when a player I killed respawns to a keep which is also not directly related to myself. Will this also be affected?
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01/21/16, 02:58 PM   #5
ZOS_ChipHilseberg
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Nothing but the source unit id is effected. The line of code was literally only adding sourceId = 0.
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01/21/16, 03:02 PM   #6
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Ok. I misread your first answer. Now that you say it like that it becomes clear.
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01/21/16, 07:31 PM   #7
coolmodi
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Originally Posted by ZOS_ChipHilseberg View Post
Nothing but the source unit id is effected. The line of code was literally only adding sourceId = 0.
I really hope you guys at least think about an opt-in solution like many people suggested. Would be way better than FTC or gtfo again, and it also gives much more useful data for people/groups who want it.

Just not having it at all seems like the worst way to solve it.

Why not make a "Make combat data anonymous" checkbox that is active by default, if deactivated the API will give Id (and name too pls) of that player as it does now.

Last edited by coolmodi : 01/21/16 at 07:38 PM.
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01/22/16, 05:27 AM   #8
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I am not very familiar with the inner workings of your addon, but I think you can still make it work as an opt in solution. At least for boss fights, determining how many percent of damage a player himself did should still be possible, even after the change. You can then either let the user share his data after the fight via chat, or do some magic and send it via map markers or something.
Normal mobs may be a bit harder to calculate as you would need to somehow get their overall max hp and how much healing they did to get accurate percentage of damage done.

It might not be as wholesome as before, but you can still see if you are doing good or not in a boss fight, even when no data gets shared by other group members.
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01/22/16, 09:37 AM   #9
ZOS_ChipHilseberg
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A checkbox is something we considered and are considering. The issue with that approach is that it doesn't really provide much help in the pick-up group case which is the one that has most potential for problems. We can assume that if you are grouping with friends that they won't give you a hard time. With your guild, it's the guild's values that matter and you can choose to commit to a guild that matches your values. But for the pick-up group, the DPS meter really points up the DPS component pf group success which can lead to situations where a person has a bad first pull, or a person is capable of succeeding with the group as a whole but is below a threshold that leader decides is good enough, and they are kicked. DPS is just one component of group success and relying on it exclusively as a metric for whether the group can succeed or not can destroy perfectly good groups. Putting a checkbox in would let the player hide their DPS, but my guess is that it would just turn into a situation where they are forced to turn on the setting or be kicked. A player choosing to not show DPS would be assumed to be bad. On the other hand, something like only allowing the full info in trials, or only allowing it in premade groups (not LFG) would take the pressure and control away from individual players. None of this is to say that any of these other solutions will be used. I just wanted to point out that having a checkbox isn't necessarily a perfect solution. Finding something that would highlight the good parts of DPS meters (learning and optimization) while minimizing the bad parts (kicking anyone under X DPS on the first pull) would be the goal. Any ideas on that front would be constructive feedback.
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01/22/16, 10:45 AM   #10
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You could take care of that before the group is even formed by the group finder and only match players together that have either enabled or disable the dps visibility. That way a group leader that wants to kick "bad" dps players won't need to force anyone to enable the option. It would split the group finder player pool in two, but also reduce the amount of times a player gets kicked, because those who don't care about dps will get matched with others that don't care either and vice versa. You could also add the checkbox right in the group finder to quickly toggle the setting in case they change their mind.
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01/22/16, 01:36 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by sirinsidiator View Post
You could take care of that before the group is even formed by the group finder and only match players together that have either enabled or disable the dps visibility. That way a group leader that wants to kick "bad" dps players won't need to force anyone to enable the option. It would split the group finder player pool in two, but also reduce the amount of times a player gets kicked, because those who don't care about dps will get matched with others that don't care either and vice versa. You could also add the checkbox right in the group finder to quickly toggle the setting in case they change their mind.
That would take care of it but, though I have not used it myself in a while, it sounds like the group finder still wouldn't be able to survive a significant fragmentation like that. I would defer my judgment if faced with a more recent experience that says otherwise, though.
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01/22/16, 02:03 PM   #12
ZOS_ChipHilseberg
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It's an interesting idea sirinsidiator, but splitting the pool in half is a pretty rough penalty.
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01/22/16, 02:05 PM   #13
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You can add a "doesn't matter" checkbox to fill any of the other groups... let you get a group faster but you just stfu if the group doesn't meet your special expectations, and good for everybody if you really don't care about that epeen/noepeen stuff.

and other advantage nobody would know if you wanted the DPS or not or if you just went there with a don't care check. so less prejudice.

Also i'm not sure that the maths would be as simple as 1/2 pools. Because with that choice, a lot of people who want to play for fun and not rushing everything may finally use the tool knowing they have a good chance to find people with the same state of mind. And less kicks and leave will surely make the grouping tool more efficient overall. (even if groups are formed slower). But probably people rather enter a group faster and kick and leave and whine during hours. sigh.

Last edited by Wandamey : 01/22/16 at 02:22 PM.
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01/22/16, 02:57 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by ZOS_ChipHilseberg View Post
It's an interesting idea sirinsidiator, but splitting the pool in half is a pretty rough penalty.
I don't have any metrics on your group finder, but the few times I tried it I had to wait forever and three days to get a group (as a dd for one of the daily dungeons). So splitting is probably not a reasonable idea until it gets a lot more popular, which in turn won't happen unless it overcomes its problems...

Two other ideas:
a) Add a new rank system (as in low, mid, high) that is based on a players performance in pve. The ranking is kept separate for heal, tank and dps performance of a player and is scaled by the current average population performance. There are x numbers of divisions and the group finder then matches only players from the same rank or one below. Players can see their own ranking in the UI. That way they know how "good" they are compared to the overall population and they can work towards a better rank in order to find better groups.

b) Change the group finder into a lobby style system where someone can open a group, define what they are looking for, add a custom text and it shows in a list (like ages ago in Diablo 2). Players then can filter and select a group they think is a match for them (WYSWYG) or just say "I don't care" and get automatched. This would also make the current chat based lfg spam unnecessary, because the group finder would become the same thing in a global space. It would thus increase the pool size for the group finder and make finding a group faster.
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01/22/16, 11:57 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by sirinsidiator View Post
a) Add a new rank system (as in low, mid, high) that is based on a players performance in pve. The ranking is kept separate for heal, tank and dps performance of a player and is scaled by the current average population performance. There are x numbers of divisions and the group finder then matches only players from the same rank or one below. Players can see their own ranking in the UI. That way they know how "good" they are compared to the overall population and they can work towards a better rank in order to find better groups.
Unfortunately I think implementing a scoring system would almost guarantee destruction of the current population that uses the group finder tool, at this point in time.
Originally Posted by sirinsidiator View Post
b) Change the group finder into a lobby style system where someone can open a group, define what they are looking for, add a custom text and it shows in a list (like ages ago in Diablo 2). Players then can filter and select a group they think is a match for them (WYSWYG) or just say "I don't care" and get automatched. This would also make the current chat based lfg spam unnecessary, because the group finder would become the same thing in a global space. It would thus increase the pool size for the group finder and make finding a group faster.
I think this is quite possible, the down-side is players giving up on using the text-based note system and then the group finder tool in general as a result of so many other players posting for the similar type of run (If not the exact same run)

The issue I believe that really is at heart the fact the group finder tool was broken and cast aside for so long.

We have only just got a basic group finder tool that functions... Now we need the community base to accept and really start using the group finder tool.

Therefore I think the best course of action to take is to look at refining the group finder tool, optimizing it to produce groups faster... Before implementing extra features, such as performance/utilization of specific API functions to designate whether you are to be partied with another player or not, we need the general community of ESO to grow more accustomed to the group finder tool.

With the group finder tool, a method of optimization could be assigning categories (queues) to group placement.
  • First category would be pairing DpS as they are most abundant in the group finder.
  • Second category would be pairing those two DpS that are now grouped with a tank or healer.
  • Third category would be placing the now 3-man group with the placement of the last remaining role.
I think an option to leave things as they are for the time being and letting the community as a whole get used to utilizing the group finder tool again, without changing the API to restrict what is currently available so ZoS and authors of addons that utilize those specific API functions to draw data from can monitor the general consensus on acceptance/tolerance of the current addon GroupDamage, would be the best course of action to take.

Sorry if it was TLTR...

I really like the idea of communications with the community in regards to API features, many thanks to you Chip for being one of the most 'vocal' ZoS employees.
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01/23/16, 03:00 AM   #16
coolmodi
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Originally Posted by ZOS_ChipHilseberg View Post
A checkbox is something we considered and are considering.
Nice to hear you guys consider it

Originally Posted by ZOS_ChipHilseberg View Post
The issue with that approach is that it doesn't really provide much help in the pick-up group case which is the one that has most potential for problems.
I think everyone can agree that the only potential problem lies within random groups from group finder, and maybe also a bit with groups formed from chat for (non)vet dungeons.

"FTC or kick" or "checkbox or kick" aren't really that different afterall, so there will be absolutely no change where this is already the case, only that not everybody needs an addon installed, so people who just don't want FTC or have a weak PC will get helped with the GroupDamage approach.

Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I also just don't see how people would kick more over dmg/not having the checkbox than they already do over dmg/no FTC. In the end it's exactly the same, just that using the GroupDamage approach gives more useful data and doesn't require everybody to have the addon. People that refuse to share dps or don't have FTC already won't get taken along and asumed bad, and in group finder dungeons people also won't care more than they already do. If the group is too slow people aready kick or leave even without seeing numbers, others don't care as long as the group works.

You also plan on revamping the group finder, so you should just add a kick vote system while in groups formed from that, and if the rest of the group wants somebody kicked, even if it's over dmg, then frankly they should be able to. People that do that are those that would otherwise leave.

Last edited by coolmodi : 01/23/16 at 03:03 AM.
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01/23/16, 03:47 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by BornDownUnder View Post
Unfortunately I think implementing a scoring system would almost guarantee destruction of the current population that uses the group finder tool, at this point in time.
It's hard to say how or if it will impact the population of the group finder unless you try it. At least it would solve the problem of people getting kicked for low dps, because players that care about things like that will usually be in the upper ranks and only get grouped with other players that have a similar mindset, or can meet their expectations. The lower ranks probably won't care that much anyways.
One thing that may pose a problem is that groups in the lower ranks may simply not have the power to finish a veteran dungeon if they only get low performing players. So it will certainly be necessary to have a healthy mix of mid and low ranking players to avoid that.

Originally Posted by BornDownUnder View Post
I think this is quite possible, the down-side is players giving up on using the text-based note system and then the group finder tool in general as a result of so many other players posting for the similar type of run (If not the exact same run)
I don't believe that anyone would give up on the group finder if it becomes a proper replacement for chat based group finding.
The problem you are talking about is also unlikely to happen, as there will always be a lot more players looking for a group than opening a group and in case they run low on lfg players, the system could just match multiple lfm players together if they are looking for the same activity after some time has passed and lfg players can also be matched together like in the current system where everyone is basically handled as a lfg player. It's just a matter of how the interface is designed.

In my opinion, the current concept will never really take off unless the needs of the players are taken into account. It's a typical case of designing away from the desire line:

For example there is no way to tell the group finder that I want to do both undaunted dailys and it is up to chance that I get matched into a group like that. It's just much simpler and faster to ask in chat "LFG v16 dd daily gold+silver". Until this kind of query can be put into the group finder, chat based group finding will always stay the preferred way even with the upcoming incentives.
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01/23/16, 06:30 AM   #18
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not a fan of your A) solution but if you reverse the issue you can come up with something

why not include the group dps (as a whole) as a part of the mechanic at boss fights? : doing too high dps could enrage the boss faster for example (with a yellow/green/red zone, red making the run fail in most case, yellow for normal boss behavior... and a tiny little window of green for efficient teamwork maybe with a bonus loot for staying in that window or a chance at bonus extra damages or anything)

that way there would be more focus on teamwork (both tactical and power management) rather than individual biggies. And still a lil-o-meter to content lil-o-meter lovers.


Edit :
Originally Posted by Chip
DPS is just one component of group success and relying on it exclusively as a metric for whether the group can succeed or not can destroy perfectly good groups
except saying that teamwork+tactic >= overkill won't make it true. Even people who aren't in favor of the shown dps acknowledge that you can bypass all mechanics with high enough dps.

I doubt that a simple API change can solve anything. Why not an alternative like disallowing kicks altogether but make it possible to "sacrifice" a teammate to a deadric prince for a boon. Like 20% extra damage for all if you sacrifice a dps, 50% def for the tank, health regen for the healer. The sacrificed is given the possibility to observe the game without being overwhelmed by his own noobness (in all relativity ofc). Maybe he can solve some puzzles to have the deadra jailor smite mobs here and there.

Maybe that kind of system could also allow entering the dungeons with less than 4 people if you can add the boons/sacrifice. Having a teammate actually jailed should just allow more benefits.
So dead weight wouldn't be so dead, and could actually learn from watching. Even chose to get to jail for their firsts runs to learn the mechanics etc...

but anyway there are an infinite way of having things working without pushing player to their worst. None of them is as simple as an api change though.

Last edited by Wandamey : 01/23/16 at 10:17 AM.
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